Cypher

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DrunkenSamurai
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Re: Cypher

Postby DrunkenSamurai » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:00 am

Infiltrate, BRB pg 38, "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed."


Are there any units in the game where only a single model in the unit has this special rule? In my limited experience (very limited lately) units that can infiltrate contain only members with the ability? If this is the case why the wording of the rule?

Robert
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Re: Cypher

Postby Charistoph » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:15 pm

DrunkenSamurai wrote:Infiltrate, BRB pg 38, "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed."


Are there any units in the game where only a single model in the unit has this special rule? In my limited experience (very limited lately) units that can infiltrate contain only members with the ability? If this is the case why the wording of the rule?

Robert

Currently, I've only seen Independent Characters. Also, don't forget Infiltrate grants Outflank, which is the only current way to use them to do anything special with the unit.

Edit: IG Gunnery Sergeant Harker sort of does. I say sort of, because his Special Rule grants it to his whole unit, anyways.
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Re: Cypher

Postby DrunkenSamurai » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:22 pm

Why don't they just say IC with infiltrate only allow outflanking when joining a non-infiltrating unit? Seems like a complicated way to word a restriction - as a positive addition to the unit.

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Re: Cypher

Postby NightLordsOldtimer » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:35 pm

I still disagree with your interpretation of the "Deploy" and "Infiltrate" timing. Infiltration happens during Deployment, says so in the rules you quoted, if you care to interpret them that way, which you obviously do not.

And The Most Important Rule is to have fun, that the "Rules" are not hard-and-fast in the spirit in which GW says they have intended them, which is NOT strictly for tournament play, but as a game between friends and/or like minded people. That's coming straight from GW.

I'm not going to "try to pull one over" on someone, and I don't appreciate your implication that I am or that I would. This is something that comes up a lot in discussions on the internet about such rancorous topics as Escalation: The assumption that someone you're going to play against is going to "spring something on you unawares", such as dropping a Revenant Titan down on the table without you knowing that it's coming. I find this perception patently absurd. I always discuss what I'm bringing to a game with my opponent prior to the game, and make sure they're aware of any special rules or units that I'd like to bring. If they have an issue with something, we discuss it, and if necessary I'll play an alternate list for that game; I always have multiple variations of lists with me, so I can run pretty much whatever is going to make my opponent comfortable and enjoy the game.

I just happen to disagree with your interpretation of Infiltrate on an IC that is joining a unit in Deployment. It's not a crime, and it's not cheating, I just disagree with you, and those who think and behave as you do. As it is, I don't Infiltrate Cypher with a unit, but deploy him with the unit in a Rhino on the table (or at least have done so so far in 9 straight games), but if my opponent brought Cypher and chose to use him in the way that I have interpreted how he is allowed to be deployed with a unit as Infiltrating, I would have absolutely no problem with that.

The Most Important Rule is NOT "Follow the rules to the letter", but to enjoy playing with your miniatures in a fun and relaxing way, and to be free to interpret the rules in a mutually agreeable fashion; even to go so far as to make up your own rules, or use "alternate" or "house" rules. It's entirely up to you and your opponent what you do in the course of a game. To say otherwise is contrary to the true spirit of the game...
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Re: Cypher

Postby NightLordsOldtimer » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:50 pm

DrunkenSamurai wrote:Why don't they just say IC with infiltrate only allow outflanking when joining a non-infiltrating unit?

That's exactly my point. They don't say that, but since the wording of Deployment and Infiltrate don't specifically say that you have do it that way that, some people, including TOs, have interpreted it the way that Charistoph has. And when the TO of a major event interprets rules a certain way, it is taken as gospel by certain types of folks who are inflexible and seemingly incapable of having a good time without resorting to being a Rules Lawyer...

If someone Rules Lawyers me during a game, and by that I mean gets really annoying and inflexible or one-sided about how they are interpreting the rules, then fine, I will finish the game with them, shake hands, and say "Good Game". But the next time they ask me to play a game with them, well, I'm just going to end up being busy doing something else just then. And that goes for any game, not just 40K... I find that being a Rules Lawyer is a function of someone's personality type, not a function of any game system...
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Re: Cypher

Postby Charistoph » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:24 pm

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:I still disagree with your interpretation of the "Deploy" and "Infiltrate" timing. Infiltration happens during Deployment, says so in the rules you quoted, if you care to interpret them that way, which you obviously do not.

Disagree all you want, but that still does not actually change the rules about the timing in the Deployment Phase. EVERY reference to Infiltrate specifies their timing of being deployed beyond the Deployment Zone is after everything else that can't and isn't in Reserves, and the Independent Characters are not exempt. Nor are Independent Characters allowed to join a unit before the Deployment Phase.

Anything else is a House Rule to be discussed before hand.

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:And The Most Important Rule is to have fun, that the "Rules" are not hard-and-fast in the spirit in which GW says they have intended them, which is NOT strictly for tournament play, but as a game between friends and/or like minded people. That's coming straight from GW.

I'm not going to "try to pull one over" on someone, and I don't appreciate your implication that I am or that I would. This is something that comes up a lot in discussions on the internet about such rancorous topics as Escalation: The assumption that someone you're going to play against is going to "spring something on you unawares", such as dropping a Revenant Titan down on the table without you knowing that it's coming. I find this perception patently absurd. I always discuss what I'm bringing to a game with my opponent prior to the game, and make sure they're aware of any special rules or units that I'd like to bring. If they have an issue with something, we discuss it, and if necessary I'll play an alternate list for that game; I always have multiple variations of lists with me, so I can run pretty much whatever is going to make my opponent comfortable and enjoy the game.

I just happen to disagree with your interpretation of Infiltrate on an IC that is joining a unit in Deployment. It's not a crime, and it's not cheating, I just disagree with you, and those who think and behave as you do. As it is, I don't Infiltrate Cypher with a unit, but deploy him with the unit in a Rhino on the table (or at least have done so so far in 9 straight games), but if my opponent brought Cypher and chose to use him in the way that I have interpreted how he is allowed to be deployed with a unit as Infiltrating, I would have absolutely no problem with that.

The Most Important Rule is NOT "Follow the rules to the letter", but to enjoy playing with your miniatures in a fun and relaxing way, and to be free to interpret the rules in a mutually agreeable fashion; even to go so far as to make up your own rules, or use "alternate" or "house" rules. It's entirely up to you and your opponent what you do in the course of a game. To say otherwise is contrary to the true spirit of the game...

I know the Most Important Rule is to have fun. I don't appreciate someone telling me I forgot the MIR just because I point out that someone is violating the standard rules.

In this place, we aren't in the middle of setting up or running a game. We are going over things to make sure we have them right and proper BEFORE we do so. So we CAN be aware of House Rules we may want to implement and why.

But if someone tries to ignore the rules without a proper discussion before hand, I consider that cheating, and that's how it was coming across in the earlier posts. And I have seen more than enough people deliberately try to confuse the rule to get an easter egg advantage.

I have also seen people have a very wrong interpretation of the rules to know how easy it can do that, so I do try to make sure it is not intentional.
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Re: Cypher

Postby exlibrismortis » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:34 am

6th edition has been established as a permissive rule set. If it doesn't say you can do something, you can't do it. You can only do what it says you can do. Whether that be the codices, BRB, or addons.
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Re: Cypher

Postby onecooldad » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:18 pm

DrunkenSamurai wrote:Golly I miss 40K :thumbsdown:




DS:


I appreciate your sarcasm. It is discussions like the one here in this thread that have caused me to completely stop playing W40K.
I USED TO ROLL THE DICE, FEEL THE FEAR IN MY ENEMIES' EYES...

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Re: Cypher

Postby Charistoph » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:56 pm

exlibrismortis wrote:6th edition has been established as a permissive rule set. If it doesn't say you can do something, you can't do it. You can only do what it says you can do. Whether that be the codices, BRB, or addons.

True.

BUT, as has been pointed out in a way earlier, those rules CAN be changed, but that requires a proper conversation before the game begins.
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Re: Cypher

Postby NightLordsOldtimer » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:25 pm

Charistoph wrote:
exlibrismortis wrote:6th edition has been established as a permissive rule set. If it doesn't say you can do something, you can't do it. You can only do what it says you can do. Whether that be the codices, BRB, or addons.

True.

BUT, as has been pointed out in a way earlier, those rules CAN be changed, but that requires a proper conversation before the game begins.


Thank you.

I would like to add that I just had an "A-ha!" moment. I now see what you have been trying to explain, but I had to walk thru the steps in my head before I had the epiphany. For those still following this discussion, let me illuminate:

~ Scenario:
~~~ Two players are about to play a game of 40K. After the preliminaries, they have rolled off to determine who will deploy first. Player A will deploy first, and Player B will deploy second. Both players each have one unit with the Infiltrate USR.

++ Begin Deployment Phase ++

+++++ Begin Primary Deployment Sub-Phase +++++

==> Player A deploys all of his units except those that either he will keep in Reserve, or that have at least 1 model in them that has the Infiltrate USR.
==> Player B now deploys all of his units except those that either he will keep in Reserve, or that have at least 1 model in them that has the Infiltrate USR.

+++++ End Primary Deployment Sub-Phase +++++

+++++ Begin Infiltrate Sub-Phase +++++

==> The players roll off to determine who will place their Infiltrating unit first.
=======>> Player B wins the roll-off and chooses to deploy his Infiltrating unit first, and then does so.
=======>> Player A then deploys his Infiltrating unit.

+++++ End Infiltrate Sub-Phase +++++

++ End Deployment Phase ++


~ Result:
~~~ Cypher has the Infiltrate USR, but since the unit of CSMs that he will operate with (join) do not, either both Cypher and the unit of CSMs must be deployed in his player's Primary Deployment Sub-Phase of the Deployment Phase (before the Infiltrate Sub-Phase begins), OR Cypher and the unit of CSMs he is joining must be placed in Reserves after the Primary Deployment Sub-Phase ends and then arrive either via Outflank or from that players long board edge when they arrive from Reserves.
~~~~~~ In either case, Cypher and the unit of CSMs that he intends to join cannot be deployed together during the Infiltrate Sub-Phase because the CSMs do not have the Infiltrate USR and could therefore NOT be deployed during the Infiltrate Sub-Phase.

Correct?

I hope that clears things up, and my apologies to you, Sir. Thank you for your patience.

Now, as for the Peanut Gallery...

onecooldad wrote:
DrunkenSamurai wrote:Golly I miss 40K :thumbsdown:


DS:

I appreciate your sarcasm. It is discussions like the one here in this thread that have caused me to completely stop playing W40K.


Then why are you trolling a post that is specifically about 40K, when you no longer play it? I fail to understand the need of people who have stopped playing 40K to make un-constructive comments in a thread specifically about 40K, that is in a forum that is specifically labelled "Warhammer 40K".

Please go away and leave us alone. If you want to learn about 6th Edition of 40K, then great, but otherwise keep your snarky comments to yourself. As you can see, the matter has been resolved amicably...

Good day, Sir.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And now, back to the topic at hand: Has anyone else tried running Cypher in your army, or using his Formation?

I'm currently 5-3 running basically the same configuration, either 2,000 points or 1,850 points, and I like what he can do, but sometimes he's a non-factor, and I have to give up a lot (190 points) to take him. In my last game his negative effect on my Warlord came into play when my Warlord and his Retinue of Chaos Spawn got hit with Psychic Shriek. Otherwise, he's handy to have around, but not a universal "must have", IMHO.

I like him, tho, and I got a model kit bashed for him, and got that painted by a friend, so I'll probably keep using him at 1,850 and higher, if for no other reason than it keeps me from taking and relying on a second Heldrake...

It'd be interesting to hear if anyone else has any other actual experience with using him...
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