Cypher

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NightLordsOldtimer
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Cypher

Postby NightLordsOldtimer » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:53 pm

Is anyone else running Cypher in their lists, now that he's got 6th Edition rules?

I've been using him in 2,000 point games with my CSMs, and so far he's worked out really well! I don't have any Chosen yet to run his Formation, just been running him with a unit of 7 Plague Marines with 2 plasma guns in a Rhino (don't forget that dozer blade, kids!). That's been working out pretty well. The unit can stay in the Rhino and get within 12" of something & then Cypher and one of the plasma gunners pops out of the hatch and dumps a bunch of plasma shots into whatever. He's also not terrible in close combat, given that he's dishing out two S7 AP2 hits at Initiative 8 and WS7. In one game he accepted a challenge when my opponent thought his Chapter Master was going to face off against my Nurgle Biker Lord with The Black Mace, and Cypher finished off the Chapter Master before he could swing. It was pretty awesome. In another game Cypher held up a unit of Assault Marines and the remains of a Tactical squad for 3 rounds of combat. Also awesome. And in a third game he created a "bubble of denial" roaming around the center of the board in the Rhino with the Death Guard unit, and my Eldar opponent just stayed in the corners of the table, afraid to venture too close to his Rhino, allowing me to corral his forces into the corners.

Just curious if anyone else has tried him out, and in which armies, and what you think of him so far?

I'm 4-2 with him so far, and very satisfied with him. Just made up some variant 2K lists and a few 1,850 lists with him in case someone wants to get in a game at that level...
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Re: Cypher

Postby Jaygh » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:47 am

One build I had toyed around with was Cypher + 20 plague marines. Expensive, but if you infiltrate those guys midfield, there's not a lot in the game that can get rid of that, and with hit and run you won't be getting tarpitted. Overall I think he's solid, but you kind of need to build a list around him.
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Re: Cypher

Postby Mojo_Jojo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:29 pm

Lol I was kind of thinking along the same lines of putting him in a unit of 30 Death Company and infiltrating or outflanking. Combine w/ a Blood Angel libby taking codex psychic powers and give the unit a 5+ cover save, then add shrouding. Expensive as hell but would be fun for a friendly match.
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Re: Cypher

Postby onecooldad » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:39 pm

You know what would make a good BatRep?

Playing a list along the lines of what MJ is proposing, with a good eye on whether or not the big expensive unit survives the game.

I mean, you know that your opponent is going to lob everything he has the unit, just to achieve the "Moral Victory" of having triumphed over such an obscenity!


ocd 8)
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Re: Cypher

Postby Charistoph » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:32 pm

Jaygh wrote:One build I had toyed around with was Cypher + 20 plague marines. Expensive, but if you infiltrate those guys midfield, there's not a lot in the game that can get rid of that, and with hit and run you won't be getting tarpitted. Overall I think he's solid, but you kind of need to build a list around him.

Are you using Ahriman or Huron to get the Plague Marines to reliably Infiltrate? Or do you depend on the luck of the draw?

Mojo_Jojo wrote:Lol I was kind of thinking along the same lines of putting him in a unit of 30 Death Company and infiltrating or outflanking. Combine w/ a Blood Angel libby taking codex psychic powers and give the unit a 5+ cover save, then add shrouding. Expensive as hell but would be fun for a friendly match.

How do you get the Death Company to Infiltrate? I'm not aware of any Characters that allow DC to do that.
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NightLordsOldtimer
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Re: Cypher

Postby NightLordsOldtimer » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:05 pm

@Charistoph: Cypher has Infiltrate, and it confers to the unit he joins...
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Re: Cypher

Postby Charistoph » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:42 pm

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:@Charistoph: Cypher has Infiltrate, and it confers to the unit he joins...

True. Confering the USR isn't the problem.

The problem lies in when Cypher joins the unit. Units with Infiltrate must deploy after units without, unless they are put in to Reserve. And Independent Characters are not part of units until they deployed in to the unit or declared part of the unit in Reserves. This means he would join any unit he is with after they already had been Deployed.

Since Infiltrate doesn't allow for redeploying units, Cypher can not drag non-Infiltrating units across the Deployment Line any more than they could before.

However, he can be useful for getting them to Outflank.
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Re: Cypher

Postby NightLordsOldtimer » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:54 pm

Charistoph wrote:
NightLordsOldtimer wrote:@Charistoph: Cypher has Infiltrate, and it confers to the unit he joins...

True. Confering the USR isn't the problem.

The problem lies in when Cypher joins the unit. Units with Infiltrate must deploy after units without, unless they are put in to Reserve. And Independent Characters are not part of units until they deployed in to the unit or declared part of the unit in Reserves. This means he would join any unit he is with after they already had been Deployed.

Since Infiltrate doesn't allow for redeploying units, Cypher can not drag non-Infiltrating units across the Deployment Line any more than they could before.

However, he can be useful for getting them to Outflank.

I disagree with that interpretation of the rules completely, as it invalidates putting Infiltrate on an IC, when the point of doing so is so that he can join his unit when you're deploying, and Infiltrate him and his unit.

He joins his unit as you're deploying them, meaning, just like when you determine which ICs go with which units, and which units are going to be held in reserve, he's with the unit at the time of deployment, and the last step (before Scout moves) of Deployment is deploying Infiltrating Units.

Likewise, I have a Nurgle Biker Lord who runs with a unit of 5 Spawn. I deploy them together; I don't deploy the Spawn, and then join him to them next in Deployment, they are deployed together. So, Cypher joins his unit, and then he and his unit deploy at the Infiltrators step of Deployment. Read the rules for Infiltrate. It's very clear that that is how it's supposed to work, given RAW for the Infiltrate USR...

I hate this debate on this subject, and rules nit-picking in general. It takes a lot of the fun out of the game, and is yet another reason why I don't play in tournaments. It's not in the spirit of "The Most Important a Rule"...
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Re: Cypher

Postby Mojo_Jojo » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:13 am

Same question comes up with the Eldar Ranger Illic Nightspear joining a unit of Wraitguard w/ D-scythes and annihilating one unit on turn one....
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Re: Cypher

Postby Charistoph » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:02 am

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:I disagree with that interpretation of the rules completely, as it invalidates putting Infiltrate on an IC, when the point of doing so is so that he can join his unit when you're deploying, and Infiltrate him and his unit.

It's not a question of interpretation, it is exactly how the rules are written.

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:He joins his unit as you're deploying them, meaning, just like when you determine which ICs go with which units, and which units are going to be held in reserve, he's with the unit at the time of deployment, and the last step (before Scout moves) of Deployment is deploying Infiltrating Units.

I'll walk you through the pertinent rules:
Infiltrate, BRB pg 38, "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed." -Note that no exception is made for Independent Characters with Infiltrate to be deployed earlier.

Independent Character, BRB pg 39, "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." -Note that the Independent Character is not officially with a unit until the Independent Character is actually deployed or declared to be in Reserves with the unit.

With both of those rules, there is no possible way, outside of Reserves, that Cypher can be part of a unit before Deploying in Infiltration, so he cannot grant Infiltrate before they are also Deployed.

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:Likewise, I have a Nurgle Biker Lord who runs with a unit of 5 Spawn. I deploy them together; I don't deploy the Spawn, and then join him to them next in Deployment, they are deployed together. So, Cypher joins his unit, and then he and his unit deploy at the Infiltrators step of Deployment. Read the rules for Infiltrate. It's very clear that that is how it's supposed to work, given RAW for the Infiltrate USR...

I have read the rules quite often enough (and obviously just reread them). The problem is timing. The rules for Infiltrate and Independent Character do not allow Cypher to join a unit until the Infiltrate part of Deployment, unless both are being held in Reserve.

It's fine with your Chaos Lord and Spawn because they are deployed in the same portion of the Deployment Phase, and there is no conflict.

NightLordsOldtimer wrote:I hate this debate on this subject, and rules nit-picking in general. It takes a lot of the fun out of the game, and is yet another reason why I don't play in tournaments. It's not in the spirit of "The Most Important a Rule"...

Who is the nit-picker? Why isn't it in the spirit of "The Most Important Rule" to follow the rules, but is in the spirit when you try to sneak one by? Don't try to act noble when you break the rules without discussing it with your opponent first.

Keep in mind, if you discuss it with your opponent or a Tournament Organizer first, and they agree to it, that's a different story all together. But that doesn't mean you should ignore the rules altogether.
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